Horror vs. Thriller: A Conversation

It's the eternal question: Is it a horror movie, or is it a thriller? What's the difference? Are they two distinct genres, or is there an overlap? Fans have been debating these issues since forever, and it's not likely to be settled anytime soon. Nevertheless, I recently had a long conversation on the subject with VoH contributor and self-professed girly-girl Marilyn Merlot, which I think touched on a lot of interesting points with regard to these questions. So in the interest of hopefully adding something to the debate, here's the transcript of that conversation:

B-Sol: I think the biggest thing that separates horror and thriller is the supernatural. If a movie has supernatural stuff in it, to me it's automatically horror. Even though there are horror movies that are reality-based and not supernatural. So it's tough.

Marilyn Merlot: I don't know if I would consider the supernatural automatically horror. Sometimes you can even have a mix of horror and thriller.

BS: So what makes you consider a movie a thriller and not horror? Like you've said Silence of the Lambs is not a horror movie, and I kind of agree.

MM: Yes, Silence of the Lambs is a thriller. To me, a thriller is a movie that has some kind of mystery to the story, and a creep factor. It may have some suspense to it, and some fast-paced action.

BS: Yeah, I think Silence of the Lambs and movies like that get more involved in the crime aspect of things, in the detective work and all that.

MM: Where horror is fear, and wanting to scare and terrorize viewers.

BS: Yes. The main purpose of a thriller is not to terrify you. It's to build suspense, but not necessarily to scare the shit out of you.

MM: For example, Jaws. The ocean at night is creepy, and when she jumps in the water at the beginning, you know that shark is coming. That's where it starts to get suspenseful. Jaws is also a thriller, not horror.

BS: Very interesting, because Jaws is another one that I've never found to be a horror movie. It's suspenseful, but not horrifying. Jaws, to me, is more about the adventure of killing the shark, than the fear it's instilling in people.

MM: It can also come down to someone's personal perception, what they find to be horror or thriller. You and I may not agree. I think it can also be different for men and women. Women are generally more scared, or creeped out easier. So what I might find terrifying, you may find laughable. I've got a great example, if you want to debate the movie with me... I know we dont agree. Let's talk Blair Witch Project.

BS: You know I hate it, right?

MM: Yes. You know it creeped me out, right?

BS: But even though I don't like it, I will definitely say it's a horror movie, and not a thriller.

MM: And I was going to say it's a thriller.

BS: Wow, really? Explain.

MM: First off, I have a tendency to over-think a little, and try to put myself in that moment. I guess you can say I'm a girly girl. Yes, I like horror, but I do get freaked out pretty easily. With that movie, think of being lost in the woods, with knowing the back story, and hearing all the creepy things at night. Anyone would be a little freaked out. Then again, i think it comes down to girls being more scared.

BS: But don't you feel like since the whole thing is about making you scared, that it's horror?

MM: The movie had its suspenseful moments and creep factor, but nothing compared to what horror is. Did I find it terrifying? No. The movie wasn't violent, nor did it have a villain--that we saw, anyway.

BS: It did have an evil spirit, though. See for me, that totally takes it into horror territory. Maybe if it was something human, i might think differently.

MM: Yes, but as I said, in my opinion a movie can be supernatural and still be more thriller than horror.

BS: Yes, we disagree there. I think if there's something unreal, something beyond reality that can't be explained rationally, it's automatically horror. You're saying some movies like that can still be thrillers. So let me turn it around this way. Give me an example of what you would consider definitely a horror movie, and not a thriller.

MM: OK, let me stick with the classics: Halloween.

BS: Great example, because that's a movie that is not supernatural. It's a human killer, so someone might say that makes it a thriller. But i would agree, it's totally horror. It's not like Silence of the Lambs, because in Halloween, we're not mainly focused on Dr. Loomis and the cops trying to stop Michael. We're mainly focused on watching Michael stalk and kill these kids.

MM: Well most people may disagree, but The Shining is not horror. I really like it, but it's not horror.
BS: Totally disagree. Maybe because I'm thinking thrillers always have to make sense somehow in the real world. And Shining totally doesn't, it's like a nightmare.

MM: He's a writer, taking care of a hotel. That's real-world.

BS: Yeah, but what happens to him? Unless you take the position that it was totally in his head. That might turn it around and make it a thriller...

MM: There are strange happenings, and you wonder about Jack and the other characters. He's losing his mind. He's not all there, that's basically it. I'm not terrified, sitting on the edge of my chair. Is it creepy? Yes, all children in these types of movies are creepy, so once again theres my "creep" factor. That, for me, makes it a thriller.

BS: I could totally see that one depending on how you interpret it. Because some people (like me) see it as him being influenced by spirits haunting the hotel. Although Nicholson plays it like a lunatic from the beginning, but that's just Jack.
Here's something I was reading recently [in Taschen's Horror Cinema] about this whole thing that makes sense to me. A thriller is all about the buildup, about the expectations, about the terror of wondering what's going to happen. The suspense. But horror is about actually having that terrible thing happen, seeing your worst fear actually happen, and the effect of it. It's all about absorbing the shock.

MM: I totally agree and again, I think it's going to come down the individual, and what people can and cannot handle.

BS: True. I do think, though, that sometimes filmmakers set out to make a horror movie that turns out to be more of a thriller to a lot of people, and vice versa. But here's something else about this whole thing that bothers me. I think sometimes people use the word thriller because they think it makes a movie more respectable than being a horror movie.

MM: Good point, I agree. A lot of people shun horror movies, they automatically think all that blood and guts and torture, it's awful, who wants to see that? I think a lot of people think that way once the title of horror is thrown in there.

BS: Right. Sometimes a studio will want to sell their movie as a "thriller" even if it isn't. Although I was afraid they were doing this with Shutter Island, and I was wrong. At first, it looked like a straight-up horror movie. But in the end, it did turn out to be a total psychological thriller. Once you learn the nature of what's really going on, instant thriller.

MM: It's a fine line and will always be--but it makes for good arguments!

BS: Yes. There will always be a fine line between the two genres. And it led us to this very intriguing debate, so hopefully we made some kind of sense on this tough issue. But in the end, it's up to the viewer to decide!

VAULTCAST: Conversations in the Dark... w/Brad McHargue

Seems like everyone loves to point out which horror films are "overrated". Hell, I just made my own list of them last month. It's one thing to point out certain movies that a lot of people can agree get more credit than they deserve, but what about those films that everyone just seems to love but you? Brad McHargue, writer for HorrorSquad and author of the blog I Love Horror, is used to this problem, as his opinions are often far from the majority. Good thing he's not afraid to piss people off.

Which is also why he makes a great guest. This week on Conversations in the Dark, he joins me to talk about movies like Drag Me to Hell and Grace, which many people adored, but Brad thought were dogcrap. Plus, I get into my own continued disdain for the beloved Blair Witch Project, and we both scratch our heads at those who call Paranormal Activity overrated.

It's a whole lot of angst and perplexedness this week in the Vaultcast, so listen in below! Or proceed to the Vaultcast home page and download the sucker...

Conversations in the Dark: Brad McHargue

The Vaultcast!

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In other news, when you have a chance, release your inner Kraken by heading over to Bloody-Disgusting.com to check out my latest list: The 21 Most Kick-Ass Giant Monsters in Movie History, in honor of the impending Clash of the Titans remake...

The Tuesday Top 10: Most OVERRATED Horror Movies

If you have feathers, prepare to possibly have them ruffled today. Because I may be mentioning some of your personal faves when I run down my own own subjective list of the top 10 horror flicks that come to mind when I think of movies that get far more credit than I believe they deserve. Some of these I find to be just plain bad, while others are decent movies that have gotten raised to a level far higher than they should eve have been. Your own list might be drastically different, or perhaps you'll agree with cantankerous crabbiness. Whatever the case, strap yourself in, and let's get started, shall we?

10. Army of Darkness (1992)
Starting off with a bang, wouldn't you say? Look, I get it. This is a fun movie that offers a lot of laughs. Yet I can't properly put into words the disappointment and embarrassment I felt back in '92 when I dragged a bunch of non-horror geek college buddies to the theater to see a movie I expected to be a balls-to-the-wall horror movie like its two predecessors (or at least a tongue-in-cheek splatter comedy like the second one). What I got was the Hollywood-ized Sam Raimi making his debut. I know this movie is beloved by millions, and I enjoy it. But as an Evil Dead fan, I can never shake that initial disappointment.

9. The Butterfly Effect (2004)
Self-absorbed 20-somethings on parade, led by their patron saint, Ashton Kutcher-Moore. Blech. And yet this pretentious sci-fi thriller has somehow been acclaimed by a certain segment of moviegoers, who are presumably drawn in by the notion of special-effects-enhanced navel-gazing. When it comes to time travelers, I'll take Rod Taylor or Michael J. Fox any day of the week over the guy from Dude, Where's My Car.

8. War of the Worlds (2005)
When people try to argue that this flick should be right up there with the likes of The Fly, The Blob or The Thing amongst superior remakes of 1950s genre classics, it makes me want to infect them with whatever bacteria killed off the Martian invaders. Steven "Father Issues" Spielberg takes H.G. Wells' grand epic about the struggle for humanity's survival and turns it into Tom Cruise's effort to be a better daddy to Dakota Fanning. Clearly, this is a director who does a much better job handling friendly aliens than dangerous ones.

7. Donnie Darko (2001)
Don't get me wrong, this is a good movie--part Douglas Adams, part Terry Gilliam, part Harvey, I can't deny it's inventiveness. But one of IMDb's top 250 (currently 124 in fact)? Not by a long shot. This is an amusing picture by a writer/ director who read Stephen Hawking and thought he understood it. Later works that sprung from the mind of Richard Kelly include the equally overrated and far worse Southland Tales, and the just plain abominable The Box. The kind of movie people like to say they love because it makes them sound really smart.

6. The Amityville Horror (1979)
As bad as the remake was, I never really came down on it all that hard, because I found the original to be just as bad, if not worse. In no way, shape, or form should this movie be mentioned in the same breath as movies like The Exorcist, The Omen, The Changeling, etc., yet I'll often see just that. Folks, I know sometimes it's hard to believe, but just because a horror film was made in the '70s, that doesn't instantly make it a classic. Even if it does have Superman's girlfriend and Barbra Streisand's husband.

5. Friday the 13th (1980)
My lack of patience for all things Jason is well-documented. And yet, I do enjoy this very Jason-less original. But even the screenwriter himself admitted to me it was basically a knock-off of Halloween designed to turn a quick buck, and not much more. It does a fine job of keeping the viewer in suspense, and Betsy Palmer is a joy in her brief time on screen, but its nowhere near the important classic many hail it as. And I'm not just saying that because of the inexcusable overabundance of denim cut-offs.

4. Hellraiser (1987)
I'm afraid this movie just plain old doesn't hold up well. I enjoyed it a great deal at the time, and I like the sequel even more, but recent re-viewings have only showed me that not all great horror flicks remain so over time. I can still watch many other horror faves from the '80s and not get the sense that they are dated and ineffectual, yet not this one. What once seemed like an edgy, psychological masterpiece now feels like a small-budget cheesefest that's just trying too hard. Doug Bradley as Pinhead, and the Cenobites in general, are still awesome. But nothing else remotely is.

3. Ringu (1998)
I don't care if it makes me sound like a horror Philistine--I will always maintain that I greatly prefer the 2002 American remake to this highly overrated affair. The remake is better made, better acted, and just plain scarier. This J-horror groundbreaker was, for me, a big letdown--I think I actually audibly uttered the words, "That was it?" as the credits were rolling. I'm all for understated supernatural horror--hell, the original Haunting is probably the best ghost movie ever made. But there just wasn't enough payoff here to impress me.

2. The Sixth Sense (1999)
Again, an effective movie, and a fine debut from M. Night Shyamalan--which he has yet to live up to, of course. But the first supernatural horror film to be nominated for Best Picture? An injustice of cosmic proportions. This is a feature-length Twilight Zone episode with fancy production values. And that's coming from someone who was dense enough to not see the final twist coming.

1. The Blair Witch Project (1999)
I can distinctly remember the general disappointment of the moviegoing public when this movie came out; the sense of having been duped by a clever, first-of-its-kind online marketing campaign. I recall the groans of disgust as the closing credits rolled in the theater. Yet fast-forward 10 years later, and everyone inexplicably hails this thing as one of the all-time greatest, scariest, horror movies of all time. I suspect it may be a generational thing, perhaps. I was 24 when this movie came out, and was already a died-in-the-wool horror freak for many years. I think a large portion of this movie's fan base may be made up of those who were very young when it came out, and so relate it in their minds with primal, childhood fears. Kind of like me with Don't Be Afraid of the Dark, a nearly forgotten 1970s TV movie that remains one of the scariest things I've ever seen. I'm not sure. What I do know, is that aside from an admittedly effective finale, I found this movie to be an over-hyped mess in 1999, and I still do today.

21st Century Terrors, Part 1: 2000

Welcome to The Vault of Horror's year-by-year breakdown of the decade that was--a look back at horror in the aughts, if you will.

The first decade of the new century is basically over, and so it's time to assess what that ten-year stretch meant for the genre we adore. Time to begin at the beginning, the year that brought us into a new millennium, the year that had so many idiots thinking the world was going to end (until they bumped that back another 12 years). We start with the year 2000.

Interestingly, a study of 2000 in horror reveals that much of the horror drought of the 1990s, as well as other trends of that decade, were still continuing. It is not a particularly impressive year for horror, certainly not for those fans who are spoiled by everything that's been out there for the past few years.

In addition to the relative dearth of quality horror films that some would call a residual effect of the preceding decade, we also find that some of the franchises that defined the 1990s were still gasping their last. For example, Scream had its final sequel to date, Scream 3, which miraculously featured Neve Campbell, Courtney Cox and David Arquette all somehow surviving again. There would also be the second Urban Legends film (Final Cut), as well as the disastrous Blair Witch sequel, Book of Shadows, which effectively buried the legacy of what may have been the 1990s most important horror flick.

And yet a brand new horror franchise would be kicked off right here at the start of the decade. One which still continues today, and may be second only to Saw as the decade's most popular. Final Destination hinges on a rather simple premise: A group of characters cheat death thanks to a premonition glimpsed by one of them. And one by one, death comes calling for them all in gruesome ways. While no classic by any stretch of the imagination, it's guilty pleasure viewing at its finest, and hasn't seem to have lost any steam, as the fourth film in the series opened at number one at the box office just last month.

Classic monsters from horror's past proved that they could still survive even the change of a century--despite the fact that for the most part, we may have wished they hadn't. Of course, I'm thinking mainly here about the forgettable Dracula 2000, whose only merit was seeing Star Trek: Voyager's Seven of Nine fall victim to a vampire; as well as the banal Kevin Bacon clunker Hollow Man, yet another riff on the old Invisible Man concept.

Yet the classic horror theme struck paydirt at last with Shadow of the Vampire, a witty and clever film all about the 1922 making of F.W. Murnau's German masterpiece, Nosferatu. The film posits the question: What if Max Schreck really were a vampire? Willem Dafoe's performance in the role earned him an Oscar nomination, and John Malkovich is suitably masterful as Murnau.

Although it may have been a somewhat weak year, 2000 gave us a handful of unforgettable gems in addition to Shadow of the Vampire. For instance, the character of Patrick Bateman became a titanic figure on the horror landscape thanks to the instant cult classic that was Mary Harron's adaptation of Brett Easton Ellis' sinister indictment of yuppy culture, American Psycho.

Quite possibly the finest horror film of the year, American Psycho proved that the novel, once thought unfilmable thanks to its heinous imagery, could actually be transferred to the screen without losing its power. And along the way, former child star Christian Bale became legitimately established as an actor to contend with, playing the lead role with inspired lunacy.

We also got Robert Zemeckis' only straight-up horror film to date, the underrated ghost flick What Lies Beneath--starring Michelle Pfeifer and Harrison Ford in a rare turn as the heavy. And the Canadians gave us Ginger Snaps, the ingeniously fresh take on the werewolf mythos that approaches the material from a post-modern, feminist point of view, tieing lycanthrope in with puberty.

And finally, 2000 was the year that George Romero attempted to break back on to the horror scene with Bruiser, one of the most unfortunate misfires of recent years. The horror/thriller failed to connect with audiences, and Romero would have to wait a few more years before his old undead pals would return him once again to the spotlight.

Although a somewhat inauspicious start to the decade, 2000 would give us a few glimmers of the good stuff that was to come. The genre was shaking off the doldrums of the 1990s, and it wouldn't be long before things would be getting much, much better.

Also from 2000:

• Pitch Black
• The Cell
• The Gift
• Citizen Toxie: The Toxic Avenger IV
• Ju-on 2
• The Little Vampire

From Post-Mortem to Postmodern: A History of Horror Movies, Part 6

It seemed like the horror genre had nowhere else to go after the blood-drenched, boundary-pushing 1970s and '80s. And in a way, that was true.The 1990s is remembered by many as a lowpoint in the history of scary movies. And while that's a slightly inaccurate generalization, the decade did suffer in some respects as a result of the excesses of the years that preceded it.

On the one hand, you had many of the deathless franchises of the 1980s lurching forward, series like Friday the 13th, A Nightmare on Elm Street and Halloween churning out sequel after sequel, burning out the moviegoing public in the process. New slasher series like Child's Play, Leprechaun and Candyman, while offering some new ideas, also added more fuel to the fire.

In addition to that, a backlash occured. Beyond the genre, American moviemaking in general became more conservative, reacting to the unbridled violence and sex of the previous generation with more restraint and less gratuitousness. Criticisms of the business had begun to have an effect, and filmmakers had finally gotten over the fact they could do certain things they couldn't before. Now they were being more prudent about when and how often to do them.

Within horror, the gore factor was greatly reduced. Of course there were some exceptions--the most notable of which was a certain 1992 horror comedy by New Zealand director Peter Jackson called Brain Dead (or Dead Alive in America). That offbeat zombie flick ratcheted up the onscreen violence to ridiculously unheard of levels, but played it for laughs all the way. Perhaps that was the only way Jackson got away with it.

Ironically, once the splatter scene became old hat, Hollywood made something of a return to the grand guignol of a bygone era. Gothic horror made a brief comeback, and even the old monsters got taken out of mothballs for movies like Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992), Mary Shelley's Frankenstein (1994), Wolf (1994) and The Mummy (1999) (though the latter was reimagined as more of an action film.) Vampires in particular benefited from a "goth" movement that buoyed Anne Rice's series of novels to worlwide acclaim and led to a motion picture version of Interview with the Vampire starring mega-stars Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise.

The genre was lost in a way, heading in several different directions at once, unable to find its bearings. It was playing, after all, to an audience that felt as if it had seen it all. In hindsight, it seems only natural that the only thing to do under the circumstances was to deconstruct. For the first time, horror films became self-aware and self-reflective.

Just as he had been among the pioneers of the previous era, director Wes Craven led the pack again. Toying with the concept with 1994's New Nightmare, something of a coda to his Elm Street saga in which dream killer Freddy Krueger crosses over into the real world, Craven committed fully to self-aware horror with Scream (1996). A slasher flick in which all the characters seem to know about slasher flicks and all their cliches, the movie plays upon our expectations, injecting new life into a tired subject with a healthy dose of postmodern irony. Scream and its sequels, along with pics like I Know What You Did Last Summer (1997), led to an unlikely rebirth of the hack-and-slash subgenre.

After years of searching for a new identity, the horror genre benefited from the shot in the arm, and by the end of the decade seemed to be on the road to recovery. Yet it also seemed as if horror filmmakers everywhere had learned over the course of the 1990s that they didn't necessarily need buckets of guts to effectively generate terror.

Witness the types of films that led the renaissance in the late 1990s. In America, it was newcomer M. Night Shyamalan and his atmospheric, Oscar-nominated ghost story The Sixth Sense (1999). There was also the ground-breaking Blair Witch Project of the same year. Although the overdose of internet hype that accompanied the film may have sabotaged it to a certain degree, it was the ingenious decision to inspire fear through the hyper-realism of a so-called "mock-umentary" approach that makes the movie a landmark--and one of the biggest influences on the genre to this day.

Meanwhile, from overseas in Japan, a movement was spreading abroad that would have an even greater impact in America in the years to come. With Hideo Nakata's Ringu (1998) being the most well-known, Japanese horror would further reinvigorate the genre and open up new avenues to explore.

Horror had proven that it had a lot more life left in it. In fact, with the dawn of a new decade, it would soon become unimaginable that it had ever been in trouble in the first place. If the 1990s saw horror go into hiding, then the start of the 21st century saw it make up for lost time, exploding into the mainstream consciousness like never before.

Other major releases:

• Return of the Living Dead 3 (1993)
• In the Mouth of Madness (1995)
• Cube (1997)
• The Haunted Lantern (1997)
• Urban Legend (1998)

Part 1: The Silent Dead

Part 2: Gods & Monsters

Part 3: It Came from Hollywood

Part 4: The Times They Are a-Changin'

Part 5: Blood & Guts

Soon to come: Part 7 - Gore Goes Mainstream (a.k.a. The Final Chapter)